Reasons for increased drilling

Most progressives insist that additional drilling is not the answer, or at the very least, it is not a short term answer, and the problem can only be tackled from the demand side.  Conservatives counter that if we had been drilling in the 90s, we would have had the extra oil today.

I fail to understand why we cannot do both ~ why can we not drill AND conserve.  It appears that market forces are already ensuring various conservation measures.

For instance:

[U.S. Transportation Secretary Mary E. Peters] said that Americans drove 1.4 billion fewer highway miles in April 2008 than at the same time a year earlier and 400 million miles less than in March of this year. She added that vehicle miles traveled (VMT) on all public roads for April 2008 fell 1.8 percent as compared with April 2007 travel. This marks a decline of nearly 20 billion miles traveled this year, and nearly 30 billion miles traveled since November.

This continued a trend from March 2008
Americans drove less in March 2008, continuing a trend that began last November, according to estimates released today from the Federal Highway Administration. ... The FHWA’s “Traffic Volume Trends” report, produced monthly since 1942, shows that estimated vehicle miles traveled (VMT) on all U.S. public roads for March 2008 fell 4.3 percent as compared with March 2007 travel. This is the first time estimated March travel on public roads fell since 1979. At 11 billion miles less in March 2008 than in the previous March, this is the sharpest yearly drop for any month in FHWA history.

The arguments generally offered against offshore oil drilling (and drilling in ANWR) are: (a) that it would be bad for the environment & (b) it would have no short term impact.

Both of these arguments are true.  They are also silly !

Let us consider the environment argument first:

We all do very many things that are bad for the enviroment without batting too many eyelids.  For instance, my air conditioner goes on when my house heats up above 81 C ~ and I grew up without any airconditioning in a part of the world where the temperatures routinely went above 100C, so I know I can live without air conditioning.  I also drive to work when I could easily use a bicycle (on the days that I am not ferrying my daughters around, that is).  I also like to eat mangoes that are grown halfway across the world, and shipped in with a significant  fuel consumption ~ I would be very unhappy if I were deprived of those mangoes, but I would not die.

By offering an "it is bad for the environment" argument, we just look plain silly (or hypocritical).  Instead, what we should argue (and what I think we really mean) is that the cost/benefits analysis of additional drilling (offshore or ANWR) is not beneficial.  This argument would be reasonable (in that it is not silly/hypocritical), but it would need to be backed up with some numbers/analysis (we can expect to get so many barrels in so many years, etc... this increased supply would have this much effect...etc.)  Unfortunately, most of us have no idea what those cost/benefits tradeoff really are:  I know I don't, and I suspect noone else does either.  Understanding the cost/benefits tradeoff requires     an understanding of the expected supply side, and the supply side is extremely murky ~ noone knows how many barrels of oil we have remaining, and even if someone did, they are closely guarded secrets held by the major oil nations (it is very hard to get any information from the Saudis, for instance)

Given the uncertainty on the supply side, my vote would be to do all that we reasonably can to enhance the supply ~ even if that enhancement happens in 10 years as a result of actions taken today.

And that brings me to the 2nd point

Drilling today would not have any short term impact

This is true.  But we are all for very many things that will not have any short term impact.  

For instance, I have solar panels on  my roof which covers about 3/4 of my total electricity consumption.  I exploited various government programs (tax rebates and subsidies), and saved on the installation (by installing it myself) such that the system paid for itself in 6 years.  However, from an energy consumption viewpoint, the system will not pay for itself unless it is used for 20 years ~ it takes a lot of energy to make a Si photovoltaic (and all the assorted hardware required for the system), and the annual energy production by my system is about 20 times less than the energy required to produce it (and in this analysis, I have ignored the decrease in output from the panels).

From an energy viewpoint, my photovoltaic panels will not be of any benefit unless it is used for > 20 years.  It has no short term impact.

And yet, we are all for photovoltaic panels (or so I hope, anyways).

What is also missing from the current debate is an analysis on the geopolitical implications

Oil (and energy) will be an increasingly important strategic asset in the next 50 years.  Countries that control oil (and energy) will dominate countries that do not.  "Controlling" oil has several aspects to it: (a) control of the oil fields/wells (b) control of drilling technologies & infrastructure (c) control of the shipping lanes and infrastructure (d) control of the refinery technologies & (e) control of the refinery assets.

China, India, Russia, and Brazil understand this equation very well.  China, for instance, is buying up drillng rights all over the world ~ sometimes they are outbid by the Indians, but the Chinese have very deep pockets.  India, with very little oil of it's own, has invested in strategic refinery assets and refinery technologies (not very many countries know how to refine the undesirable forms of crude oil), and benefits from higher crude oil prices.  Oil (and energy) assets in China, India, Russia and Brazil are substantially nationalized.

The US, unfortunately, does not understand this equation.

For the US, it will be increasingly apparent that federal control of the oil refineries, of oil field, and other energy assets is a strategic necessity.

That is what we should be debating.

Update [2008-6-19 17:45:46 by SevenStrings]: Many commenters are claiming that the benefits are minimal, as per a DOE study. Therefore, I will present a more detailed cost/benefits analysis in my next diary.

Display:


Re: Reasons for increased drilling (2.00 / 1)

Thanks for this diary.  It also speaks to a more general point about debating positions without retreating to dogmatic stances determined by affiliation.  I'm actually on the fence about this specific issue.  But if we are going to move forward as the party of solutions and innovation, we cannot refuse to reconsider internal consensus.


The future is unwritten
by Strummerson on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 03:39:12 PM EST

Re: Reasons for increased drilling (none / 0)

I am somewhat on the fence, but I totally understand the polling Jerome mentioned earlier today (Americans are 71:18 in favor of drilling, or something like that)


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 03:40:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Reasons for increased drilling (2.00 / 1)

FINALLY a fellow brother democrat who is not elitist. People are hurting at the pump and these bozoos are asking us to buy flex fuel cars or hybrid cars at 25 K a pop per car .

people cant afford to get credit, can't hold on to houses, can't afford high cost for food... and we democrats say-- go out and buy a freaking 25 k AT A MINIMUM car to elevate your gas pump woes.

stupid is what stupid does...


Rise / Repeat / But for god's sake don't spin!
by aliveandkickin on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 07:43:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Reasons for increased drilling (2.00 / 1)

I'm not opposed to further drilling, save for two concerns:

1) Environmental impact
2) Impatience (it would be far better not to exploit what's left so that we run out last).

Its not the worst idea out there.  It just won't solve the problem.  It may help a little, but if we do it, we have to acknowledge that it's a very small aspect of where we go from here.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 03:40:52 PM EST

Re: Reasons for increased drilling (none / 0)

okay, what environmental impact do you think it will have ?

how much (or how little) do you think it would help ?


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 03:42:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Reasons for increased drilling (none / 0)

Well, as one example the DoE just released a study that said that drilling at ANWR would cut the price of oil by 75 cents.

PER BARREL.

Yes these things add up.  Little in abundance makes a lot.  If we wanna drill, fine, let's drill.  But let's get the hell off of oil as fast as we can.

As to the environment?  I'm less concerned than I was fifteen years ago.  The technology has come some ways.  But we need to be as careful as possible, and even then there is risk.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 04:13:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Reasons for increased drilling (none / 0)

I have seen the DOE study... and those numbers have been pulled out of someone's rear end.

Noone really knows, like I said...


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 04:15:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Reasons for increased drilling (2.00 / 1)

Potential impacts (from here):

The Case against Offshore Oil
compiled by Rainforest Action Network, courtesy Mendocino Environmental Center

*  A steady stream of pollution from offshore rigs causes a wide range of health and reproductive problems for fish and other marine life.

*  Offshore drilling exposes wildlife to the threat of oil spills that would devastate their populations.

*  Offshore drilling activities destroy kelp beds, reefs and coastal wetlands.

Over its lifetime, a single oil rig can:

*  Dump more than 90,000 metric tons of drilling fluid and metal cuttings into the ocean;

*  Drill between 50-100 wells, each dumping 25,000 pounds of toxic metals, such as lead, chromium and mercury, and potent carcinogens like toluene, benzene, and xylene into the ocean, and

*  Pollute the air as much as 7,000 cars driving 50 miles a day.

History of accidents and violations

*  In May 1992, Chevron USA pleaded guilty to 65 violations of the Clean Water Act and paid $8 million in fines for illegal discharges from the company's production platform of the California coast.

*  In March 1997, Chevron was fined 1.2 million for operating a well off the coast of Ventura with a broken ant-blowout valve, a key environmental protection on an offshore oil well.

*  In 1998, a rupture in Torch Oil's pipeline spilled 21,000 gallons of oil, damaging a rich ocean fishing ground and killing wildlife in the delicate coastal ecosystem at the mouth of the Santa Ynez River.

*  State and local authorities repeatedly cited the Venoco Corporation for releases of deadly hydrogen sulfide gas at its Goleta platform in 1998-99.

*  An ARCO pipeline ruptured in the 1994 Northridge earthquake, spilling 193,000 gallons of oil into the Santa Clara River.

How much will it help?  On ANWR, from the same source:

Most of us have heard that the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, thought to be the U.S.'s grand hope for massive new oil, has been protected---for now.  (It would provide less than a year's worth of driving for the U.S. vehicle fleet.)

If you're really interested about potential impacts regarding offshore drilling in Florida, I recommend checking out Florida's Coastal and Ocean Future - A Blueprint for Economic and Environmental Leadership, an issue paper commissioned by the Surfrider Foundation.

Scroll down to the bottom here to download the full report, which is very compelling.  Here's a bit:

Offshore oil and gas drilling is the slowest, dirtiest, and most expensive way to produce energy. Opening our coasts to drilling would do little to lower prices or make our nation more energy independent, but it would threaten Florida's beaches with pollution and potential oil spills and destroy billion-dollar tourism and fishing industries.

There are cheaper, cleaner, faster, and more sustainable energy solutions. Energy efficiency and clean, renewable energy will start saving consumers and businesses money today--and protect Florida's coastal waters, beaches and economies for future generations.

Improved vehicle standards would do more to lower gas prices than wiping out animal habitat to drill for more oil. If cars and trucks got an average of a couple more miles per gallon, we'd save more oil than exists off the entire coast of Florida. Yet federal gas mileage standards haven't significantly changed in 20 years.

Instead of allowing oil companies to drill off the Florida coast, our elected officials should be leading the fight in Washington for better gas mileage and clean energy alternatives such as wind, solar, and biomass.

 


I'm as strong as a bull moose, and you can use me to the limit. - Teddy Roosevelt
by fogiv on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 04:40:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thank you (none / 0)

This is a very substantial comment.

I should point out, however, that your potential impact applies to all offshore wells, not just the proposed ones.

So, the better question would be: how much additional impact will the proposed offshore wells have, compared to the ones that already exist.

For instance, how many fish are currently dying because of our current gasoline consumption, and how many additional fish would die because of the proposed oilweels ?

And as to how much would it help ?  I would say that a year's worth of drivign for the US fleet is a very substantial amount... because all of our known oil assets combined addup to about 50 years worth of driving.  I would also say that noone really knows how much oil we will get from ANWR.

Finally, the paper you cite from surfrider.org is total BS.

Offshore oil/gas drilling is NOT the slowest/dirtiest/most expensive way to produce energy.  That honor would go to Canadian tar, or to ethanol.  Offshore rigs cost about $15/barrel ~ this is more expensive than Saudi oil ($3/barrel) for sure, but it is substantially cheaper than Canadian tar ($50/barrel).

And no, there are no cheaper, faster AND sustainable energy solutions~ every form of sustainable energy is substantially more expensive.

But, thank you again for the substantial commment...


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 05:35:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thank you (none / 0)

Wow, I guess my education, coupled with my 10 years working in the environmental protection and consulting industry has led me astray.  I realize now that I know nothing.  Thanks for pointing that out.

Before I hand in my resignation though, let me just respond to a few of your, uh, "points":

I should point out, however, that your potential impact applies to all offshore wells, not just the proposed ones.

Awesome, thanks for pointing that out.  It was intended to reflect comparitavely because, as you well know, direct impacts from as-yet-unconstructed oil derricks cannot be accurately quantified, save estimation.  

What we scientists tend to do in these situations is use a comparative analysis to form a predictive model.  The models are based on data, you know, gathered from observations of similar or nearly idenitcal scenarios.

Then again, maybe you failed to notice that the last three bullets points are projected impacts from a single oil rig.  Not all oil rigs as you assert.  Just one.  

So, the better question would be: how much additional impact will the proposed offshore wells have, compared to the ones that already exist.

Better question than what?  Did I pose a question?  No matter, let's see:

Let the number of proposed oil rigs off the coast of Florida equal X.  Potential impacts will reflect as Y.

X*90,000 = Y metric tons of drilling fluid and metal cuttings into the ocean.

I'll spare you the rest of the math, as I assume you'll get the idea.

For instance, how many fish are currently dying because of our current gasoline consumption, and how many additional fish would die because of the proposed oilweels?[sic]

What specifucally do you mean by "current gasoline consumption"?  Without defining the implications of this variable, the question cannot be answered.  But you probably know that.  Should we include catastrophic spills, construction, operations, and maintenance in the analysis?  What about decommissioning?  That's a pretty nasty affair too, you know.

Are we talking solely about the impacts of offshore oil rigs, or do we need to expand our conversation to include the greater issue of climate change?  Surely, our "current gasoline consumption" contributes to that as well.  Do you mean to ask how many fish are dying as a result of global warming?  Oh, and that begs the question:

What specifically do you mean by "fish"?  Are we to exclude other marine life?  Which fish are important enough to consider?  Commericial fisheries?  What of the impacts to other ecological elements such as marine mammals, microbiotics, and aquatic flora?  

And as to how much would it help?  I would say that a year's worth of drivign [sic] for the US fleet is a very substantial amount... because all of our known oil assets combined addup to about 50 years worth of driving.  I would also say that noone really knows how much oil we will get from ANWR.

Adding ONE year's worth to an existing FIFTY is substantial?  How do you figure, particularly given the known impacts of such an endeavor?

We can't know how much oil can be drawn from ANWR until the deed is done, you're right on that.  We can however estimate.  A U.S.G.S. report estimated that there is a 5 percent likelihood of finding 5.15 billion barrels of oil in the Refuge, and a 95 percent chance of finding 148 million barrels of oil - a projection substantially lower than their 1989 estimate of a possible maximum amount of 11.67 million barrels of oil (5 percent likelihood) and the minimum projected amount of 697 million barrels (95 percent likelihood).

Here's the deal:  oil is a nonrenewable resource. Once oil and gas is extracted from the land, it's gone, baby, gone. If our national security objective is to limit reliance on foreign oil imports and create a sustainable long-range energy policy, there are better ways of achieving it - such as improving the fuel efficiency of all our goddamned cars. If we can hold relatively constant the production of automobiles, even a gradual change in current fuel economy standards would reduce demand very significantly - far more than could be produced by extracting oil from the Coastal Plain of the Arctic Refuge.

Finally, the paper you cite from surfrider.org is total BS.

Offshore oil/gas drilling is NOT the slowest/dirtiest/most expensive way to produce energy.  That honor would go to Canadian tar, or to ethanol.  Offshore rigs cost about $15/barrel ~ this is more expensive than Saudi oil ($3/barrel) for sure, but it is substantially cheaper than Canadian tar ($50/barrel).

And no, there are no cheaper, faster AND sustainable energy solutions~ every form of sustainable energy is substantially more expensive.

Uh, no it isn't.  You're free to argue that Tar and Ethanol are "dirtier", and I welcome the point of view.  I happen to have a different opinion (informed by my younger brother, who's a biologist specializing in marine fisheries).  

The potential adverse impacts of offshore oil exploration are vast and cascading, having implications on land, sea, and air.  Further, the potential for impact to something as critical to human survival on earth as the food chain, makes these ugly derricks pretty damned "dirty" in my book.  Of course, we obviously have a different ranking system.

Finally, with Democrats leading an agressive investment in technology, research, and development of viable alternative energy options, I'm confident we can kick the oil addiction almost entirely.

I do a lot of compliance work for the solar, wind, and hydropower industries, and can affrim first hand that, even under the yoke of Bush, we're making great strides.  Imagine what we can do with Obama in the Oval Office and a Dem majority in the House and Senate...

You know, on second thought, I think I'll keep my job.


I'm as strong as a bull moose, and you can use me to the limit. - Teddy Roosevelt
by fogiv on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 07:19:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I wish you had refrained from ranting... (2.00 / 1)

But I will try to pick out the substance of your points..

(a) First, I dont care for your background resume, or work experience.  I could have cited my own resume, but that would have been equally pointless.  I prefer to stick the the substance of the argument.

(b) Tar and ethanol are dirtier than offshore oil,  offshore oil is dirtier than a Saudi rig.  This is because it takes a lot of energy (steam) to wash the sands from which you get the tar.  It takes less energy to pump out the oil from a Saudi field.  These facts are reflected in the costs associated with each barrel of oil from the Saudi field, from an oil rig, and from Canadian tar.  

If you disagree with that, you should state the reasons for your disagreement.  An acceptable argument would be: it takes less energy to wash the canadian tar than to pump out the oil because...

Instead, you cite your little brother as an anonymous authority... which looks just silly !!

You then go on to cite a "potential adverse impact on the food chain" which is vast and cascading.  Sorry, that is just plain alarmist.  The "potential adverse impact" of every known energy source is devastating.  Nuclear energy is a classic example of this.  But even renewable forms of energy (such as Solar) can be potentially catastrophic.  It will take solar farms the size of Kansas to fulfil US energy needs ~ what happens if we have a very cloudy season, for instance.  Or a cloudy decade.

(c) You seem to believe that it is an either/or question.  It is either increased fuel efficiency or increased drilling.  And you seem to  believe that I oppose increased fuel efficiency.  

I do not !!  I am all for increased fuel efficiency.  I am for lighter car (but not for hybrids).  I am for more efficient insulation, for greener cities, and for less meat consumption.  But I am also for increased drilling.

(d) Adding 1 years worth of supply to an existing 50 years worth IS VERY substantial.

1/50 = 2%.  There is a golden rule in economics ~ when supplies become tight, speculators take over.  That is why speculation is rampant in the oil markets today ~ Spare capacity, or the difference between capacity (supply) and demand, is less than 3% of the capacity.  

Increasing the supply by 2% will increase the difference between supply and demand from 3% to 5% ~ which almost doubles the spare capacity.

That is a huge deal from the market viewpoint.

(e) My question about the number of fish being killed because of current gasoline consumption was simple.  But given your answer, I will rephrase:

You believe that offshore oilwells are poisoning our foodsupply chain and threatening our very existence.  Since you believe this, you should be doing all you can to minimize offshore oildrilling.  Perhaps this includes a total boycott of all petroleum products, including gasoline, and plastics made from gasoline.  

Right ?


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 07:58:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I wish you had refrained from ranting... (none / 0)

Sorry, you got the "rant" when you dismissed my initial post with what I considered to be an impotent argument.  In your most recent reply, you've proven consistent both in tone and content.  I'm relatively certain we've already reached the "agree to disagree" milestone, but I'll press on because I love talking about this stuff, and enjoy hearing opposing viewpoints.  Off we go:

(a) First, I dont care for your background resume, or work experience.  I could have cited my own resume, but that would have been equally pointless.  I prefer to stick the the substance of the argument.

First, do you mean that you don't care about my background, or literally care for it (i.e. don't like)?  Mentioning the collective experience of my Brother and myself is hardly pointless.  Our collective experience has direct bearing on the argument. We do this stuff for a living.  If your resume and qualifications are similar, they are most assuredly relevant, and I would respect them.  

If your car is acting up do you limp it past the mechanic so you can talk to your accountant about the problem?  Hope not.  :)

Look, the reference doesn't intend to besmirch you or your position, but merely bolster mine.  If my mentioning this offends you, truly, I'm sorry.  If you think its silly, well, whatever.  

Tar and ethanol are dirtier than offshore oil,  offshore oil is dirtier than a Saudi rig.  This is because it takes a lot of energy (steam) to wash the sands from which you get the tar.  It takes less energy to pump out the oil from a Saudi field.  These facts are reflected in the costs associated with each barrel of oil from the Saudi field, from an oil rig, and from Canadian tar.

This is your presentation on why these are "dirtier"?  Tell me, how are Saudi oil rigs regulated in terms of environmental protection?  I'm not aware of the mitigation measures they employ.  You must know a good deal about them to have arrived at the conclusion that less energy = clean = cheap.  Honestly, I'd love to hear more about this.  Wait, are we talking about the environment, or economics?

If you disagree with that, you should state the reasons for your disagreement.  An acceptable argument would be: it takes less energy to wash the canadian tar than to pump out the oil because...

I did generally, and you called it "alarmist".  Now, I could have gone on and on (to Gaia and back) on the interconnectivity of fragile ecozones, which would significantly broaden the argument beyond our scope.  I didn't see the need for that.  Still don't.

As for your suggestion per an "acceptable" arugment, again, I fail to see how an (as yet unspecified) "less energy" method equates to reduced (or otherwise lessened) environmental impact.  Oh, and cheaper.

If one method is inherently "cleaner" in its aproach to crude extraction but poory regulated, could it not have more (and more damaging) environmental repercussions than a well regulated "dirty" method?

The "potential adverse impact" of every known energy source is devastating.  Nuclear energy is a classic example of this.  But even renewable forms of energy (such as Solar) can be potentially catastrophic.

No doubt, nuclear power has the potential for environmental catastrophy.  Wind though?  Solar?  Catastrophic how?  Its only necessary emission, water vapor, is harmless.  If you're suggesting that renewable energy sources are as damaging to the environment as non-renewables, I just don't know what to say to that.  That's flat wrong.

It will take solar farms the size of Kansas to fulfil US energy needs ~ what happens if we have a very cloudy season, for instance.  Or a cloudy decade.

Pull out an atlas.  Look at Kansas.  Now look at Nevada.  Solar thermal power plants covering a 100 by 100 mile area of the Southwest (equivalent to about 9 percent of the state of Nevada) could generate enough electricity to power the entire nation.

A cloudy decade?  I'm the alarmist?  They tend to put solar collectors in regions that are traditionally not cloudy for decades.  :)

Look, Solar alone isn't the solution, only a part.  From the same source as above:

The National Renewable Energy Laboratory has identified the potential for more than 7,000 gigawatts (GW) of solar thermal power generation on lands in the southwestern United States - more than six times current U.S. electric generating capacity.  Other sunny areas of the United States, such as the mountain West, the Great Plains and Florida, can also generate power from solar thermal energy.

Is this as "BS" as the Surfrider paper?

(c) You seem to believe that it is an either/or question.  It is either increased fuel efficiency or increased drilling.  And you seem to  believe that I oppose increased fuel efficiency.

Odd, I said neither.

(e) My question about the number of fish being killed because of current gasoline consumption was simple.

If by simple you mean so vague that its unanswerable, then sure, I'll concede the point.

You believe that offshore oilwells are poisoning our foodsupply chain and threatening our very existence.  Since you believe this, you should be doing all you can to minimize offshore oildrilling.  Perhaps this includes a total boycott of all petroleum products, including gasoline, and plastics made from gasoline.  

Right?

Look, that's not what I'm suggesting at all.  I do think that the protection of our seas and oceans is immensely critical, and ought be at the forefront of our protection and environmental management efforts.

Life itself arose from the oceans.  Climate and weather, even the quality of the air we breathe, depend in great measure on an interplay between the ocean and the atmosphere in ways we still don't completely understand.  Even now, when the continents have been mapped and their interiors made accessible by road, river, and air, most of the world's population still live no more than 200 miles from the coast.

My position is that the relatively small (grand scheme) return from offshore drilling (and from that in ANWR) don't justify the environmental risks.  We have the means to use a lighter hand, and ought to excercise them.  

We'll never be free from oil until it is, at last, all gone.  That day will come.  In the interim, we should be doing all we can to learn to live without it (and its sub-products).  Again, in the grand scheme of things, ANWR and these FL rigs won't do much but buy us a skosh more time, and at a potentailly significant ecological cost.  What good will that extra 2% be if we push our environment past the tipping point.

Okay, maybe I am a bit alarmist, but the reality of climate change is all around us.  Someone has to keep ringing the bell.  If you argue that your 2% will help us transition to renewables, then fine, we just disagree on the severity of the risks.  I can live with that.  However, if your position is that "we're already polluted, and what's a little more gonna hurt", we'll just have to leave it where we started--on opposing sides of the issue.  :)

Seriously, thanks for talking all this trough with me.


I'm as strong as a bull moose, and you can use me to the limit. - Teddy Roosevelt
by fogiv on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 03:29:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I wish you had refrained from ranting... (none / 0)

(a) resumes:  I had a PhD in a very technical field (and from a decent school) before I turned 25.  I will not tell you what I do, but I know my stuff...

and when I said I dont care for your background... I meant I do not care to be impressed by your background... I respect people's arguments, not their backgrounds..

(b) oil extraction from tar requires a lot of steam ~ hence it is dirtier (requires more energy) than pumping it out from the ground.  pumping it out from deeper wells requires more energy than pumping it out from shallower well.  pumping it out, while having to refill takes more energy etc.

(c) Solar energy is potentially very catastrophic.  Solar energy is not available at night.  therefore, you need a storage mechanism.  The storage mechanism is either a battery, or molten salts.  Both of these are extremely dangerous... and toxic.  Further, some of the panels (the CIGS, for instance) are made with very rare-earth materials with potentially catastrophic consequences.  One dirty secret: it takes over 20 years of operation before the panels produce more energy than goes into making them.  A lot can happen (and does happen) in 20 years ~ ion bombardment degrades panel efficiencies... in some cases by quite a bit.  A Sun storm can potentially knock out all your panels.

It is nice to think of panels by themselves, but that is also very naive.

Finally, I do not grudge your alarmist view of the weather change, and other threats we face.  However, there are 2 issues:

(a) with energy consumption, you have to pick your poison (every source of energy is poisonous), and learn how to best manage that poison

(b) climate change ~ but that is not something I touched on in this diary !!

In any case, thank you for your passion, and for caring !!


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 02:45:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Reasons for increased drilling (2.00 / 2)

This argument would be reasonable (in that it is not silly/hypocritical), but it would need to be backed up with some numbers/analysis (we can expect to get so many barrels in so many years, etc... this increased supply would have this much effect...etc.)  Unfortunately, most of us have no idea what those cost/benefits tradeoff really are:  I know I don't, and I suspect noone else does either.  

ANWR drilling would net 780k barrels per day, lowering the cost of a barrel of oil 75 cents ten years from now, assuming OPEC doesn't throttle production to counter the lowered cost. I've seen the quoted extrapolation of 3 cents per gallon for gas.

And those are the government's numbers from the Energy Dept, so the reality may or may not be less favorable.


by TCQuad on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 03:42:07 PM EST

Re: Reasons for increased drilling (none / 0)

I have seen those numbers too.  I also understand they have been plucked out of someone'e rear end...

Noone really knows how much oil you might get from ANWR, and noone really knows how much oil we have remaining!


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 03:46:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Reasons for increased drilling (2.00 / 3)

I've seen people use that same argument against drilling. To be honest, we have estimates of what we think is there.

We don't know how much is really there. We don't know where exactly it is. We're basically ripping up ANWR in the hopes that we might find enough oil to matter. It's equivalent to ripping up your carpet because someone told you the previous owner may have buried treasure in the floorboards.

On the other hand, there's an brief but informative diary right above yours that links to an Olbermann segment on the Enron loophole that allows for speculation on energy markets if done electronically. Closing that could cut $25 off the price of oil almost immediately. That's an alternate, immediate solution that is entirely politically feasible. Seriously, who would defend "the Enron loophole"? Well, besides McCain.


by TCQuad on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 04:01:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Reasons for increased drilling (2.00 / 1)

Exactly. I'm starting to feel like I'm talking to intelligent designers and global warming deniers, who keep going on about how "the case is open" and "evolution is a theory" and "there is no proof" yet.

The evidence is out there. The numbers are as plain as daylight. Stop ignoring them and pretending they don't exist. Drilling will not significantly reduce gas prices. Drilling will take decades to result in oil generation.

Once again, we're talking about the difference between $20.50 gas in 2020 and $21.00 gas for the first three months of the year. That's the kind of scale we're looking at with this unimaginably stupid pander. The fact that gas itself will already be $20 seems to be lost of the proponents for the fifty cent rebate twelve years from now.


should we go outside? / should we break some bread? / are you'nterested?
by Firewall on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 03:50:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Ah yes... (none / 0)

namecalling is a very effective tool in an argument...


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 03:51:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You're still ignoring reality. nt. (none / 0)


should we go outside? / should we break some bread? / are you'nterested?
by Firewall on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 03:53:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You're still ignoring reality. nt. (none / 0)

Totally.  See my comments upthread.


I'm as strong as a bull moose, and you can use me to the limit. - Teddy Roosevelt
by fogiv on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 07:26:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Reasons for increased drilling (none / 0)

I just don't want oil companies benefitting from hysteria.  We can discuss this issue, but Republicans will not bargain in good faith.  We've been screwed by them before.

To me, this is like the Social Security debate:  I'll gladly discuss options for updating SS, I just don't want Republicans to set the adgenda for the debate.


by NewOaklandDem on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 03:46:22 PM EST

Re: Reasons for increased drilling (2.00 / 1)

Perhaps you missed the last line in my diary....

I am for nationalizing the oil assets in the US!!


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 03:47:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Reasons for increased drilling (none / 0)

If we have the full debate now, the Republicans will never allow it out of committee.  Take drilling off of the table for now, wait untill we have stronger majorities, and bargain from a position of power, not weakness.

Anyway, I think you're diary is a good one, with well though out concepts.  Rec'd

I still don't want to drill, though.


by NewOaklandDem on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 03:53:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Nationalizing the oil assets in the US... (2.00 / 1)

The American public is extremely wary of "nationalization" of anything.  

They've heard of various "nationalizations" of oil and other industries by other nations over the years.  The industries and companies involved were most often US-owned, and the US didn't like someone else taking "our" businesses (even though those businesses were sometimes acting as colonial powers, etc.

Like every large industry, oil stock is held by US citizens, even those who don't realize they are stock-holders, such as the large state pensions funds.

Now, Regulation- That's another thing.
I'd regulate the oil companies until they squeeked.  


by susie on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 01:06:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nationalizing the oil assets in the US... (none / 0)

I am aware of the political angst associated with nationalizing things.

At the same time, it is the only course of action that will make any positive outcome.

I am all for regulations (or an appropriate amount of regulation) under normal circumstances.  When supplies are tight, and getting tighter, you simply cannot regulate your way out of trouble.. the speculators have way too much power, and way too much motivation to speculate !!


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 01:13:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nationalizing the oil assets in the US... (none / 0)

Point taken re regulation.
However, are supplies really tight?  I often hear not, though obviously they are tighter than in the past, with the greater industrialization of China, India et al.

Isn't most of the present concern re Price rather than Supply, and price is up because of lower US dollar i.e. our debt and interest payments, as well as speculation and the huge amount used by US military? (Didn't I read that US military uses 1% of US supply?)
 


by susie on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 01:51:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nationalizing the oil assets in the US... (none / 0)

Price is an issue only because of a very tight supply.  The excess capacity is less than 3% of total capacity.  When the excess capacity decreases below 5% (rule of thumb), speculators take over.

And no, the US debt, interest payment, and the US military has very little to do with the price.

Current prices are controlled by demand mostly in China!!


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 02:54:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nationalizing the oil assets in the US... (none / 0)

Thanks for elucidating this issue.


by susie on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 02:02:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You aren't making sense (none / 0)

If Oil reserves are going to be a strategically important asset then it makes more sense to keep the oil in the ground for as long as possible.   What strategic advantage do we gain from pumping out all the oil in the country if in 25 years or so we will be fighting China & India for control of a dwindling supply?  


Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius
by Blue Neponset on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 03:46:59 PM EST

Re: You aren't making sense (none / 0)

If I followed your line of thought, I would be for capping existing oilwells, so as to preserve them for future use...


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 03:49:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You aren't making sense (2.00 / 2)

Maybe if you followed it to an absurd conclusion, but that still doesn't change the fact that you are contradicting yourself.  

Can you answer my question?  

What strategic advantage do we gain from pumping out all the oil in the country if in 25 years or so we will be fighting China & India for control of a dwindling supply?


Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius
by Blue Neponset on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 03:51:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You aren't making sense (none / 0)

Actually, I was pointing out the fallacy in your argument ~ there are no absolutes.

The more assets you have (including the ability to pull oil from ANWR), the sooner you have them, the better off you will be.

The strategic importance of oil has a limited shelf life ~ at some point in the next 50 years, we will have moved onto something else.  You can try holding your reserves for as long as you want, but you run the risk of having those reserves be worthless when the alternative is discovered.


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 04:00:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You aren't making sense (2.00 / 1)

The more assets you have (including the ability to pull oil from ANWR), the sooner you have them, the better off you will be.

The oil in the ground is an asset.  It continues to be an asset even after you sell it.  It just changes from a long term investment into cash.  Current assets like cash aren't generally thought of as strategic assets.  That is why you are contradicting yourself.  Once oil becomes cash it stops being a strategic asset.  

You can try holding your reserves for as long as you want, but you run the risk of having those reserves be worthless when the alternative is discovered.

The idea that oil reserves are going to be worthless in the next 100 years seems far fetched to me.  We use petroleum products for many many things besides energy.  When do you expect us to have a substitute for plastics or asphalt?  


Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius
by Blue Neponset on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 04:14:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You aren't making sense (none / 0)

Have you heard of Cargill ?

They make plastics (poly-lactic acids) out of corn.  Most yogurt sold in Germany is packaged in PLA.  PLA also happens to be bio-degradable.

There are very many non-petroleum based solutions for our materials needs!!


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 04:18:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You aren't making sense (none / 0)

You are ignoring the points I made.  

1) Oil that is pumped out of the ground and sold is no longer a strategic asset.

2) Petroleum products will continue to be in demand if and when we find an large scale alternative to oil based energy.  As a result, oil deposits will continue to have value well after an alternative to oil energy is found.  

Re: your point

As we have seen with ethanol, growing corn to use as a non-food product increases the price of food.  Therefore it isn't a long term solution to using petroleum based plastics.  


Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius
by Blue Neponset on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 04:25:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You aren't making sense (none / 0)

I think I already addressed your points..

Oil that is left in the ground until after the transition away from oil is a worthless asset.

And there is a big difference between extracting oil from corn (which is a stupid idea), and extracting plastics from corn and other renewable feedstock (which is a brilliant idea).  Cargill has been making PLAs from corn for at least 20 years...


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 05:19:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I have a link to Keith's special (none / 0)

comment on the subject of gas prices and oil speculators in my diary 'McCain and the Enron Loophole'.  

http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/6/19/1536 1/6728

Whether or not we drill offshore is a question for the medium to long term but we need a short term solution.  Perhaps regulating the speculators is that solution.


No Way, No How, No McCain!
by GFORD on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 03:47:25 PM EST

Re: I have a link to Keith's special (none / 0)

Of course drilling is a long term solution.

So ?


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 03:49:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Drilling is neither... (2.00 / 2)

...a short-term nor a long-term solution.

All this increased exploration in the United States is unlikely to have any real effect on oil prices, and even if there is any effect, we won't see it for ten years or so.  Thus it's not a short-term solution.

World peak oil is already passed, it's going to get more and more expensive very quickly.  The time of oil is already over, and we're going to be transitioning away from it very, very soon.  Thus it's not a long-term solution.

Oil is dead.  Drilling for more of it is not the answer.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 03:54:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Drilling is neither... (none / 0)

And how, do you think, will we transition away from oil ?

That transition is going to be very messy... and while we are transitioning away from it, oil will be super important.


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 05:17:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I agree with you that (none / 0)

it will require oil to transition away from oil.  I'm not an engineer but aren't plastics an oil product?  And even if we develop cars that don't burn oil aren't the bodies made of petroleum products?

We can't go back to metals and wood as we would  deplete those in no time.  Have to wonder when we will start mining the asteroids...not such a sci-fi idea anymore I think.  We live in interesting times and going to get more interesting.


No Way, No How, No McCain!
by GFORD on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 07:15:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I agree with you that (none / 0)

Plastics can be made from vegetables (such as corn).  In fact, plastics made from corn are very feasible even today (making plastics from vegetables is not such a nutty idea as extracting oil from vegetables).

Plastics and vegetables have very similar material architecures ~ they are both "polymers", just of a slightly different variety.

Plastics and oil are very different ~ oil is a small molecule, plastics is a polymer (a giant molecule).  Making plastics from oil is a fairly bad idea, actually... and the only reason it makes sense is because we have so much petroleum jelly lying around.

If you go back, nylon was invented to overcome a shortage in rubber...which is a tree product.

So no, transitioning away from the oil-plasics will be relatively easier, compared to the transition away from oil-energy!!


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 07:32:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Okay... (none / 0)

What's with the sudden rush of pro-drilling diaries?  And why are they all from previous Clinton supporters?

I am seriously interested to know.  Was this brought up at a pro-Clinton site someplace?


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 03:51:57 PM EST

Re: Okay... (none / 0)

I am not sure... I do not frequent (or even know of, actually) any pro-Clinton site!!

Whats with all the namecalling ?


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 03:53:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Okay... (2.00 / 1)

I called you a "previous Clinton supporter"--how is that name-calling?

It is neither insulting nor inaccurate.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 03:55:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Okay... (none / 0)

Okay, it wasnt namecalling...

But you were trying to undercut my arguments by questioning my motives.  "Since he is a previous Clinton supporter, his argument for increased drilling is biased"

You are welcome to question my arguments, but it is silly to question my motives.

You would say "he is a previous Clinton supporter, and so his argument is suspect"
And I would say "I am excellent pedigree...honest"

And we would then have a silly argument on that.


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 04:05:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Okay... (2.00 / 2)

I wasn't trying to undercut anything.  I responded to part of your actual argument in a different comment.

I'm seriously just wondering why we suddenly have Jerome, 12 dogs, and yourself, Clinton supporters all, very suddenly posting diaries about how maybe we should be drilling for oil offshore.

It's a very sudden reversal of Democratic policy.  There's nothing wrong with that, we can have that argument, but you don't expect at least three people to have the exact same sudden change of heart, at the same time.

The only explanation I can come up with is, perhaps someone on a pro-Clinton site posted this argument, then you and Jerome and 12 dogs all read it, thought "hey that's a good point" and decided to come make the point here as well.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 04:11:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Okay... (none / 0)

Maybe you should think up another explanation...

Like I said, I know of no pro-Clinton sites.


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 04:14:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Okay... (none / 0)

Well, you obviously know of them, but I'll take you at your word that you don't visit them. :P


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 04:29:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Okay... (none / 0)

okay not all former Clinton supporters support drilling.


by alyssa chaos on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 04:14:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Indeed (none / 0)

I'm saying that, thus far, all the sudden drilling proponents have been former Clinton supporters; not that all former Clinton supporters are sudden drilling proponents.

All squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares. :)


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 04:27:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Two theories... (none / 0)

1. Some Democrats are really this greedy/stupid/misinformed.

2. Some Democrats are trying yet another strategy to undermine Obama.


should we go outside? / should we break some bread? / are you'nterested?
by Firewall on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 03:53:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Third theory (2.00 / 1)

3. Both


Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius
by Blue Neponset on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 03:55:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Okay... (none / 0)

Mister Rook, please provide citations illustrating your point, because surely if it's true, you can provide said citations.


by mrrara on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 05:02:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Okay... (none / 0)

Certainly, Mr. Rara.

We have "Oil uh oh" from Jerome Armstrong, "Pristine coastline?" from 12 dogs and a blog, and then this one, Reasons for increased drilling from SevenStrings.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 05:24:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Okay... (none / 0)

Three?  And how do you get off calling those pro-Clinton!

I think you need a few more that are pro clinton for your comments to be justified.


by mrrara on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 05:43:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Okay... (none / 0)

Oh, I almost forgot this one.  aliveandkickin might well be Patient Zero.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 06:02:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Okay... (none / 0)

New one from aliveandkickin.  (S)he must be going into late-stage oil withdrawal at this point.  Definitely Patient Zero.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 09:49:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Like I said above, (2.00 / 1)

this is really like trying to have a discussion with evolution and global warming deniers.

The facts are that whatever oil remains will take decades to reach and result in pennies off the unimaginably high prices we'll inevitably face.

Yet people keep saying "let's try it anyway" and "nothing is proven" and "who knows how much oil we have???".

It's stunning to see such blatant willful ignorance on the left. We could go toe to toe with the right.


should we go outside? / should we break some bread? / are you'nterested?
by Firewall on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 03:52:13 PM EST

Re: Reasons for increased drilling (2.00 / 2)

Drilling will not solve our energy problems; whether it long term or short term, there is no solution that involves drilling.


[for proof see all comments above]
by alyssa chaos on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 04:12:59 PM EST

Re: Reasons for NO increased drilling (2.00 / 2)

1. Oil derricks are ugly as shit

2. By the time these derricks are actually impacting oil and gas proces, more than half the US auto fleet will be comprised of alternative fuel vehicles anyway.

3. Preventing this kind of oil exploration, while also passing laws creating incentives for increased investment in alternative fuels makes oil companies literally drowning in profits think saeriously about investing those profits in alternative fuels rather than more oil exploration.


by Hesiod Theogeny on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 04:21:11 PM EST

Re: Reasons for increased drilling (2.00 / 2)

The solution is not more oil production. By the time you could get oil fields up and running, we could be well on our way to being off oil forever.

The Europeans already legislated the hydrogen economy. You want to get left behind?

The strategic argument goes right out the window if we don't need oil anymore. I say pull the troops out of Iraq, and dump all of that money into a modern Manhattan project. No hydrocarbon combustion engines by 2030. We can do it, if we just decide to.


John McCain Hates Poor People
by pneuma on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 04:26:09 PM EST

Oil Drilling- Rep. Ryan &Wilson (Both D-OH) (2.00 / 1)

A deep and involved discussion of oil drilling et al is rather out of my league, but I'll weigh in with the following notice:

Buckeye State Blog quotes Dem Reps Tim Ryan and Charlie Wilson Jr of OH re the 8000 leases covering 68 million acres that contain roughly 80% of US oil reserves, not being used.  The leases are largely in the outer continental shelf, not prohibited for drilling

The Reps propose a "use it or lose it" re those leases.  More at Buckeye State Blog.

My take is that we need short-term solutions for the public hurting now, and long-term solutions for the obvious reasons.  

Short-term solutions: you wouldn't just tell a person hungry now that you're going to plant a fruit tree to keep him healthy and alive. You'd would give that person sustenance now and help him solve his long-term problem.


by susie on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 04:37:38 PM EST


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